Mencius Versus Hsun Tzu

VERSUS

And here we have another pair of Chinese philosophers who clashed well. Mencius, the greatest Confucian next to the sage himself, and Hsun Tzu, a near-contemporary who ended up influencing the Legalists more than Confucianism, disagreed about a key point regarding human nature: Are people fundamentally good? Or evil?



Mencius: PEOPLE ARE GOOD MAN

1.) What is the rhetorical purpose of the character Kao at the beginning of this section? How does he set up Mencius’ argument? What kinds of objections to his own theory does this device allow Mencius to anticipate?

I have mixed feelings on Kao; he’s basically a vehicle to tactfully elicit Mencius’ thoughts on various issues, which strikes me as vain. On one hand, introducing another character creates a dialogue with back and forth argumentation. Kao does a good job at that, with presenting both opposing and mediated points of view. On the other hand, and this is a criticism of Plato, it essentially strawman’s the opposing argument by having Mencius get the last word. He always wins.

2.) What role does human nature, for Mencius, play in the love we show to our family members? What role does it play in the respect we show to strangers?

It’s simple: our devotion to our family is natural, powerful, and a perfect example of our inborn altruism. So is our kindness to strangers, but because it’s less intense it’s more likely to die if not cultivated. Thus if we cultivate that consideration, it simply becomes an extension to the already existing goodness within us.

3.) A great deal of the debate between Mencius and Kao Tzu concerns the origin of proprietary, or proper social behavior, which is synonymous in the text with “righteousness.” For Kao Tzu, proprietary is a matter of social convention that has nothing to do with human nature. For Mencius, the standards of proprietary are based on qualities that are inherently part of human nature. Which of these views do you find more convincing? Why?

The fundamental question is if we created these traditions as a response to something threatening, or as a natural extension to something inborn. Is it lame to claim both? That we attach purposes to things we do, which are both arbitrary and artificial? But also completely natural to the human condition? I guess the question is making me take a stand, so I’d have to side with Kao here. Even if it an extension it’s still a constructed one, and Mencius cannot claim anything modern man does is natural. But see even this is problematic, as we’ve barely defined “good”, “evil”, and “natural.” Mencius’ definition is sure to be different from mine, but I’ll stick to my guns.

4.) How might Mencius perceive the nature of evil? If human beings are naturally good, where might evil originate?

Mencius believes evil comes from our condition in life, where scarcity of resources or a harsh climate vitalizes evil within us. This is specifically why he advises kings and men alike; kings to provide the condition in the empire for good to flourish, and men so they may endure difficult times. I really like this point, but what about rich brats? People who have everything and are still cruel? Mencius may argue they had bad examples growing up and were not taught correctly, but if our innate goodness is so weak as to die even in affluent environments, then how are his solutions discernible from assuming all people are born evil? And why are some children, even under the same parents, more moral than others? There are definitely holes here.

5.) Do you agree with Mencius’ statement, “Men’s mouths agree in having the same relishes; their ears agree in enjoying the same sounds; their eyes agree in recognizing the same beauty”? How does this idea of conformity, and with it Mencius’ argument, conflict with modern ideas of the individual?

Yes and no. Yes in that humans are fundamentally very similar (we are the same subspecies after all). But no in that we are also each unique, and have different preferences. And this is why the second question is so strong: today we have an issue with any solution that’s ‘one size fits all’. It lacks nuisance and does not contend with the complexity of changing societies. That said, I can’t disagree with Mencius’ principals. Regardless of the innate goodness of humanity, it is certainly wise to design empires that foster kindness through education and adequate living standards.



Hsun Tzu: NAW NIGGA, PEOPLE SUCK

1.) Why does Hsun Tzu repeat his thesis throughout this piece? Does this technique make his argument more effective? What other types of repetition does he use? How does he the repeating images or scenarios to illustrate different aspects of his argument?

It’s something common to the essay genre: it drives the point home. Hsun Tzu repeats a number of points: that he’s countering Mencius, the ‘conscious act’ of the Sages, the need for laws, etc. They do refresh the arguments in your mind, but they can also be tedious and preachy. Meanwhile Mencius’ style is more, well, stylish, and more entertaining. But given our modern sensibilities, Hsun Tzu is more clear.

2.) What distinction does Hsun Tzu draw between ‘nature’ and ‘conscious activity’?  Are these categories mutually exclusive? What kinds of things does he place in each category?

His big premise is that evil comes easy, while goodness is hard to attain. Therefore almost anything natural is evil, while conscious activity is when we deviate from our base emotions and act virtuously (to borrow a western word). This seems weak, but Hsun Tzu is focusing on the innate selfishness of organisms, particularly when resources are scarce. Anything that is altruistic goes against this natural selfishness, and is therefore a conscious act. Whether these are mutually exclusive is a good question, but I would actually say they are. Either you are on autopilot, or you think-then-act. If course, you could internalize goodness, in which case that becomes your default.

3.) What does Hsun Tzu see as the origin of ritual principals? How does this differ from Mencius’ view?

The former claims rituals were created by the Sages to suppress humanity’s evil. Mencius claims they are a natural extension of our innate good.

4.) Why does Hsun Tzu assert that “every man who desires to do good does so precisely because his nature is evil”? Do you agree? Are his comparisons to men who are unaccomplished, ugly, camped, poor, and humble valid? Is it possible to desire to be something that is part of one’s nature?

Hsun Tzu is making the insightful point that we wouldn’t struggle so hard to be good if it came easily, or naturally to us. People who want something are generally lacking in it. But the question implies a good counterpoint, that we can indeed want more of a good thing, so to speak. Thus a rich man can want more money, a handsome man can want to be more so, and a good person can certainly strive to be better. But I also think a person is something specifically because they don’t want to be the opposite. A poor man doesn’t care about money, an ugly man is content, and an evil man is perfectly comfortable remaining so. So this would actually entirely negate Hsun Tzu argument by displaying that people only want something when they already have a taste of it.

5.) How does Hsun Tzu define “good” and “evil”? Do his definitions concur with contemporary definitions of the same words?

Yea I had a big problem with his definition. I forgot the exact line, but basically good is anything that does good, and evil is anything that does evil. Other than being a blatant and useless tautology, Hsun Tzu does stress action (and not belief) as the marker. Today we may disagree and point out that just because a person acts ethical, if the action causes more harm than good, then the action was ultimately evil (so ends > means). But to these philosophers we see no such nuance. To simply act well is sufficient, and all will go well. To them the difficulty is in the act itself, and not the integrity of the act. This is where the Greeks are superior to the Chinese, they were more willing to ask the fundamental question: what is good?

6.) How does Hsun Tzu differentiate between capability and possibility? How are they related, and does this inclusion weaken or strengthen the validity of Hsun Tzu’s arguments?

He makes an important distinction that just because a man can do something, doesn’t mean he will. So Mencius’ stressing of the goodness in all men means little if people will never act upon it. This seems like Hsun Tzu is giving ground, but really he’s countering Mencius from another angle. Even if the latter is correct, his philosophy is still impractical. It’s safer to assume all men are evil and will probably not act upon their capabilities.

7.) According to Hsun Tzu, what role does environment play in how humans deal with their nature? What kind of environmental factors determine a person’s inclination or rejection of human nature?

Hsun Tzu believes environment is everything (he repeats this statement twice at his essay’s close). If people grow in a good environment they will have the tools to defy their evil nature. If in a bad environment they will give in to it. The main elements, strangely similar to Mencius’ opinion, is education and living standards. A man needs these to be good.



Mencius versus Hsun Tzu

1.) Mencius and Hsun Tzu disagree completely about human nature, yet both are dedicated Confucians. What elements of their respective philosophies justify their inclusion as members of the same school of thought?

They both stress the same things: ritual observance, relationship of man to the state, and an ethical imperative in living life. Interestingly, Hsun Tzu ended up influencing the legalists more, while Mencius became the most celebrated Confucian next to the great Sage himself. That’s because, while the practical effect of their arguments were so similar, Hsun Tzu was ultimately more heavy handed, and Mencius more trusting in humanity.

2.) How does Hsun Tzu’s writing style compare to Mencius’? Are his rhetorical strategies more or less effective than those of his major philosophical opponent? Why?

The former is an essay writer and the latter a more conventional Chinese writer, utilizing epigramic dialogues. These both have pros and cons; Hsun Tzu is clearer and more convincing while Mencius is more enjoyable and thought-provoking. Gonna stick to me modern sensibilities, however, and go with Hsun.

3.) Who was right? Is man fundamentally good, or evil?

Brass tacks. I mean, these two did a way better job at tackling the issue than I thought possible given the era. (Goes to show my ignorance at the sophistication of the Chinese.) Both make a few powerful points: Mencius is right to point out our natural inclination to help others with no gain to ourselves, and our propensity for self-sacrifice, as well as our natural enjoyment of good, and innate disgust at evil. But Hsun Tzu is right to highlight how these may be built up by society, and without it we are prone to selfishness and cruelty. I really don’t know. I don’t want to say it’s a dice roll for each person at birth, both our natural inclinations and environmental build-up. I think goodness certainly survives while evil dies. But good also seems to build upon the foundation of evil. And besides these terms often seem impotent; is anything truly good or truly evil? Now I’m just getting tedious, so let me close by saying I’m open to both and am eager to see where the argument evolves from here.

Mozi versus Sun Tzu

VERSUS

It seems to be an irony of history that periods of intense warfare produce intense climates of mental thought. Not only in art, but philosophy and science too. A prime example is the Warring States Period of Ancient China (475-221 BCE), where 8 states of the old Zhou dynasty fought for supremacy. Before and during this period of incessant combat many philosophies sprung up trying to image the best way to resolve the war, bring peace to the people, create a stable government, and ensure future prosperity. The Chinese joked that a hundred schools of thought manifested during this time, and they weren’t that far off. Posterity has rewarded a lucky few, namely Confucianism and Daoism, but many fascinating and intelligent world-views have faded into time. One I’d like to resurrect today is Mohism, from the great Mozi (470-391 BCE), who was a popular radical in early China. He argued for the concept of universal love, to all human beings and all creatures. He was also an extreme pragmatist. This put him starkly at odds with the Confucists, who believed that some relationships were more significant than others (therefore you can’t love everyone equally) and paid strict observance to ritual (which Mozi said was unpractical and useless).

But I don’t want to clash Mozi with Confucius, rather instead another influential theorist who didn’t author a school of thought at all: Sun-Tzu. In my review of the Art of War I noted how 99% of the work was rather useless, excepting four poignant points that deserve attention: war as the greatest responsibility of the state, the general’s right to disobey the emperor, the emperor’s ethical imperative to avoid or quickly win any battle, and the advantage of the spy over infantry. I think it’ll be fruitful to compare these claims with Mozi who was fiercely anti-war. Let me first analyze them separately and then compare.



Mozi

What comparisons did Mo Tzu use to illustrate the immortality of war? Are these comparisons valid? Are they effective in presenting his argument?

Mozi uses simple allegories to illustrate how in everyday society we take offense at minor and major crimes, and enact punishment on the perpetrator. But when a country commits atrocities we not only turn a blind eye but sometimes celebrate them as ‘righteous’. For example, if a man steals an apple he is a thief, but if a country steals land for agriculture it is labeled as a strong conqueror. To ask whether this is a valid comparison is a good question, and depends on how you view morality. If it is something objective, or ideal, then I don’t think offensive war can be justified. But if morality is utilitarian, then it would depend on the ends. A poor man taking an apple to feed his family isn’t all that bad, just as a country waging war to feed its people is more forgivable. This gets real messy when a country starts waging battles for ancestral land or pre-emptive strikes, but Mozi doesn’t consider or care about these scenarios. His arguments are certainly persuasive given the limits he imposes on war’s aim, but unfortunately there is more nuance here.

The real surprise to me is the complete disregard for the Mandate of Heaven. I’m not sure how he felt about the concept, but my understanding is that any conquest must be approved by Heaven, no? So to call war evil is to ignore a very important theological belief in Chinese history.

What is the moral imperative at the heart of all the actions, including war, that Mo Tzu considers evil? Can his position be reduced to a “golden rule” of appropriate behavior?

It seems Mozi ultimately condemns actions that benefit yourself at the cost of others. This certainly seems like ‘golden rule’ material to me, but what about institutions that act as a middle man? Such as gambling? Or zero-sum economies? Maybe I’m over thinking it, but his rule seems against all competition. Mozi may in fact be an early advocate of socialist economies and equal education. But I run the risk of putting words in his mouth. I know from another piece he argues against entertainment on the grounds it distracts from constructive action, so it seems anything that depletes a moral imperative is degenerate to him.

What is the point of Mo Tzu’s discussion of black and white? What is he saying about human perceptions of scale?

I liked this part, as Mozi simultaneously refutes and attacks dichotomies of judgment. He mentions how men can judge something when it is local or easily digestible, but when it becomes abstract or mentally overwhelming, their judgment becomes inconsistent and they cling to extremes instead of recognizing nuance, or even simplicity. Microcosms don’t necessarily change when enlarged. The conclusion is that a man cannot be said to have a strong ethical stance if it is inconsistent or limited in scope. Mozi argues these peoples’ opinions should be disregarded as a result.

What does Mo Tzu mean by “offensive warfare”? What do you think he would say about defensive warfare? What conditions does he suggest have to be present to make war immoral?

I think he obviously means war that is meant to take from others for one’s own benefit, similar to his standards for the individual. I assume he would approve a defensive war, as long as it doesn’t grow to be something more. I feel uncomfortable answering the last question as it denies Mozi the right to clarify, but seeing as he’s dead let me have a go: a war is immoral if a country acts based off ‘wants’ and not ‘needs’, like an individual. I can’t say I agree, but I don’t entirely disagree either. This holds the same standards for people as it does states, which is admirable and possibly correct, but doesn’t reflect reality in the least.



Sun Tzu

Why does Sun Tzu structure his advice on war as a series of short epigrams with no expansion or development? What is the rhetorical effect of this structure? Is it more or less effective than a traditional essay format?

What a great question. My guess is that epigrams are frankly more authoritative; instead of proving something you simply state facts with the weight of your experience behind them. I also think they’re more thought provoking, as instead of expending effort being persuaded you spend your time thinking about the statements themselves, which lack more context than a well-reasoned essay. This can also be a con though as it’s less clear, but Sun Tzu may want to encourage creative thinking over placid acceptance.

What does “subdue the enemy without fighting” mean? How is it possible to achieve victory without conflict? Why would a peaceful victory be considered superior to winning an armed conflict?

A beautiful line by Sun Tzu; the statement calls for winning an objective without resorting to violence. The fact is war is simply a means to an end (whether that end is more land, more money, etc.), and it’s more humane to first try and achieve that end without killing people, which should always be avoided if possible. You’re certainly able to achieve victory without conflict through diplomacy, trade, or bribes. The reason peaceful victory is preferable is that it saves human lives, which is self-explanatory. The only advantage to armed conflict is that it’s sometimes easier/quicker, but even that’s debatable.

Why did Sun Tzu hold that “the worst policy is to attack cities”?

Frankly, because the ancient Chinese didn’t have good siege weapons. In Sun Tzu’s time sieging was a huge waste of time, lives, and resources, and it was more effective attacking other objectives.  Again the general is concerned with efficient action and saving lives.

Why does Sun Tzu place such great importance on a commander’s self-knowledge? How is self-knowledge important beyond the scope of military conflict? What kinds of mistakes can be made by people who do not really understand themselves?

It’s because a commander should know what they’re strong and what they’re weak at. If a general goes with a strategy he has little experience or affinity for, it can be a disaster, but it would be much wiser to take the option that best fits his abilities. This is good advice outside of warfare too, as we should always know our strengths and weakness to better navigate life.

Can Sun Tzu’s philosophy of war be applied beyond the scope of military affairs? Do any of his aphorisms seem relevant to other kinds of human conflict? Why has The Art of War become a best seller among American business professionals?

The general philosophy and some of his aphorisms, sure. A lot of the AoW is specific only to ancient Chinese warfare, but some of it, particularly his principals and modes of attack, are timeless and good advice for many of life’s conflicts. This is specifically why American businesses, especially in the 1980s, clung to the work. I would say the most useful advice is to understand that a.) Objectives, even when blocked by conflict, need not be unethical. It’s just as important to be humane as it is efficient. And b.) War, as with anything in life, deserves serious study and reflection.



Who Wins?

Compare Sun Tzu’s view of war with that of his contemporary Mo Tzu. Why do you think Mo Tzu writes exclusively about the morality of war while Sun Tzu refuses even to address the question?

I would say the difference is that Sun Tzu accepts the reality of war while Mozi believes it need not be a given. Mozi feels that if people, who honestly try to be good, held their country under the same moral standards they live by, there would be less war and more peace. Sun Tzu perhaps isn’t as optimistic, or rather feels given the inevitability of conflict, it would be more useful to instruct commanders on appropriate action during warfare. This though is also optimistic, as it assumes people will consider these options and not just carelessly spend lives with what’s most convenient.

I can’t easily say who I agree with more. Sun Tzu appears sexier, as he attempts to channel an evil into something more ethical. But Mozi grapples the issue and doesn’t let go: a country and citizenry must all be equally held accountable for their actions. For criticisms, Sun Tzu still dodges the question, and Mozi doesn’t articulate his definition of a just war. That said, the two provide an important debate about conflict that doesn’t exist anywhere else on a world ripe with strife.